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Public Class GeoffAppleby

Inherits Microsoft.VisualBasic.MVP : Implements IBrainFart
Browser wars, Darwinism, and the SlashDot effect.

<whinge_and_rant>

Gar! Fnark!

God damnit. Stupid people make me so angry sometimes.

It all started when Peter Torr posted on his blog about an installer issue. It was quite long,and talked about the trustworthiness of the Firefox installer.

I took it for what it was. A (slightly) tongue in cheek look at what happened when he installed Firefox (a supposedly much more secure browser) on his machine. He pointed out a few things, took a couple of things to extremes, but basically all he was saying is that for a general dumb user (which is most of those non-geeks out there), it could quite easily have been a peice of malware that was installed instead. He wasn't knocking the browser (as such), just the install process.

I admit to taking a childish delight in seeing the biggest competitor to my favourite browser taking a hit (I'm the first to crow loudly when I hear of a security flaw in Firefox), but he was really making only a small and valid point.

And he never said 'Microsoft has never made the same mistake'.

A lot of people talked about it in the blogosphere today. The one that caught my attention the most was by Frans Bouma. In his blog post, he talked about how it was Darwin in full effect because having someone deny things adamantly only pushes people to the other side in the end.

The thing that strikes me is the level to which Frans went to to make his point. Surely, in the same post as what he wrote, he's basically worked against himself by making his own post an example of the Darwin thing too?

I rarely say this publically about other bloggers, but - dude, you're an idiot. Oh, and by the way, you're first line? 'Peter Torr did spend a lot of time to tell the world why he doesn't trust Firefox as a browser.' Did you read his post? He only talked about the installer - not the browser.

Peter just now gave an update on how things have gone since he made his initial post. He's been inundated with comments, the likes of which hasn't been since the last time SlashDot wankers hit a blog.

It never fails to amaze me at the sort of bullshit that comes out of your standard slashdotters mouth.

I was quite sure right from the start that Peter was simply trying to raise a real concern. He never said IE was perfect, just that in this case the version with XP SP2 does it better.

What's the big deal?

On Frans' post, Scott Galloway even made the comment 'Why don't MS just accept that IE has exceeded it's life expectancy, it's little palm-crystal has turned red and it's time to fry that thing'. I subscribe to Scotts blog, I have nothign against what he says, or against him. But seriously - come on.

I just wish all of you would quite your whinging.

Some people prefer IE. Surely that's ok?

Some people prefer Firefox. Surely that's ok too?

I think that Martin Luther King should be brought back to life so he can fight for the rights of equality and try to stop the bigotry. But instead of fighting for the black rights, he needs to fight for equal browser rights.

Me, I prefer IE. But I work with it, and it's the only target browser for applications that I have to write at work. And I just plain prefer it. I hate tabbed browsing. I don't like the Firefox 'look'. I don't care that my CSS box model is screwed.

Bugs in IE annoy me. But I don't know of any programs that don't have bugs.

If you want to run Firefox, that's fine. Really. I don't care. But why should you stick your choices down my throat? I don't stick mine down yours (I insult Forefox users, but that's only fun, I don't actually mean it.)

I also hate Acrobat, and the whole PDF file format. Why aren't people making a big hoorah about some PDF replacement? No one got outraged at the fact that I prefer Winamp to Media Player. No comment gets made about the fact that I prefer ICQ to Messenger, or Kazaa to Napster (do either of them still work? :) What's it frickin matter which browser I use?

But a concern is a concern. The installer for Firefox could probably work better. I don't care if MS have done just as bad in the past, they're trying to do better now. If someone non-microsoft had said the installer could do better, would people have listened? My money says yes.

Just bloody get over it people.

</whinge_and_rant>

Listening to: crawling - linkin park - (3:28)
Posted: Tuesday, 21 December 2004 7:14 PM by Geoff Appleby

Comments

Frans Bouma said:

Gee... an idiot eh?

Why did you spend any energy on my opinion, in your eyes "an idiots opinion" ?

"he talked about how it was Darwin in full effect because having someone deny things adamantly only pushes people to the other side in the end."
... and I'm the idiot... LOL.
# December 21, 2004 3:38 PM

MattyT said:

Heya Geoff,

Agree with you that most of Peter's blog entry was relevant and contained good feedback. And yes, the reaction was ridiculous. It did make Firefox sound pretty naff though and - especially given that some of his points were wrong (there _are_ ways to check the binaries, it _is_ easy to turn off extensions) - it was to be expected from the slashdot crowd.

But yeah, definitely the installation process could be better. Knowing how some of the development team for Firefox work I'm sure they took heed and we'll see improvements.

But much of the retaliation is because people are sick of IE - Peter linked to Secunia but he didn't mention the stats. Firefox has 3 of 4 unpatched vulnerabilities. IE6 has 20 of 74. It's the swiss cheese of secure applications and people get passionate about it because it's bitten them in the ass.

I agree that Firefox people are too pushy about their beloved browser. My take is that I tell everyone I know about Firefox for a couple of reasons:

1) It's less secure.
- Yes it may in part be due to lack of popularity but, at least today, there's no doubt in my mind that it's more secure.
2) It allows (encourages?) poor html.
- you _should_ care that your CSS box model is screwed because one day your company will change their mind and ask you to make it FF or Opera or whatever compatible.
3) They simply don't know that there's an alternative.

The last point is a nice segue to where I slap down your Martin Luther King argument - I would like to have MLK fighting so that everyone _knew_ about both browsers...that'd be equal rights. Then the Firefox people could be less vocal.

You said that some people prefer IE - I don't think Firefox people really have a big issue with that demographic (although they do have trouble understanding it!), it's more that most people use IE and are living in ignorance that a better alternative exists. That's what us FF advocates are trying to change.

I'd like to think that I don't cross the line and stick my choices down other people's throat though - that just ain't cool. :)

Mind you, for all the PC's I've fixed I do it on the proviso that I'm allowed to replace their default browser with Firefox...I've had many less return customers since employing that policy.

Anyways, I'm all over the place with this post - must be tired! - but make the switch already will ya? ;)

Cheers,
Matt
# December 21, 2004 3:53 PM

Scott Galloway said:

Geoff, my point wasn't that IE should be dispatched today - it's that I believe MS should do what every other developer has to do eventually and coincidentally what Mozilla is a direct result of - recognise that IE's life-cycle may have already run it's course and perform a major rewrite of the underlying engine. To me the problem seems to be that so many dependencies have built up on the IE API for apps such as Office, Money and even VS.NET that making any change to IE is so fraught with danger that development has had to be frozen - with the result of poor standards support and fix-on-bug mentality. What I'd love to see is a new browser from Microsoft - employing the new 'secure' practices they've recently adopted and maybe even supporting some of the new technology recently developed (*real* .NET & XML based extensibility support ala Mozilla's XUL for example). I'd love it if Firefox was an MS product, and I'm sure many MS developers would too, it's a really nice browser and has some great features - to beat up on Firefox seems like sour grapes - the code signing stuff is such a red herring - look at the amount of .exe viruses around for proof of that! The dialog could say - I'm about to wipe your machine, click 'yes' to continue, I guarantee that 50% plus of users would click the button...
# December 21, 2004 4:39 PM

Brendan Tompkins said:

Don't Misunderstand Darwin...
# December 21, 2004 1:57 AM

Hakan said:

This is funny.

Pro-Firefox people are simply pointing out the obvious and huge flaws in this flamebait "article" produced by some Peter whatshisface who supposedly knows anything about anything, something I personally doubt.

Anti-Firefox people are writting essays about how his article actually could make some sort of sense, if you read it with a specific angle and ignore the fact that Peter is blaming Firefox for his broken installation of 7-zip, and making references to "security reports" that funnily enough lists Internet Explorer as far, far more insecure than Firefox.

Let's try writing less articles while on crack, shall we?
# December 21, 2004 5:13 PM

Guy said:

Don't let the Slashbots get to you. Getting into an argument with them is about as silly as getting into a 'Brittany vs. Justin' argument with a 13-year-old girl. If you want a good laugh about the whole thing, go here:

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2384
# December 21, 2004 5:31 PM

Aaron Barker said:

Yes, the whole discussion went off the deep end. I will admit to reading it at first as an attack on FF in general, but stepped back and realized that it was about a specific process. Valid points were made, and should be considered.

Per your question of why don't people make a stink about your Winamp vs Media Player (etc) decisions...

1 - Standards. I don't have to code an mp3 different for each of those players. The IM messengers don't even talk to each other for the most part, so that follows the same line of thinking. The standard for how an MP3 should work is set, and all players can play them the same after I create them.

2 - Security. For the most part (maybe the /rare/ exception) those programs don't have any effect on the propagation of spyware/viruses and the like.

In short... your choice of those other types of programs does not change how I create the media that they use, or increase the level of effort I have to put in to get it ready. Where what browsers are used by the majority have a lot of say in how I create a page.

If someone said that the breakdown just changed from 90% of users using my music Winamp to 90% are now using Media Player (or iTunes, or whatever)... I wouldn't have to do anything to adjust for that. In fact I didn't even have to consider what player they would use when I created it... where that is a HUGE consideration for any given website.

OK.. so now I'm just saying the same thing over and over in different ways. That question of yours just kind of popped out to me, so thought I'd write way to much on it :)
# December 21, 2004 8:21 PM
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