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Public Class GeoffAppleby

Inherits Microsoft.VisualBasic.MVP : Implements IBrainFart
My Kingdom for a Geek

Where have all the geeks gone? I know they exist - I am one, and I talk to people like me. They're abundant online - just see places like CodeBetter (of course), weblogs.asp.net, geekswithblogs, devauthority.

I'm not even that special in Australia - the aus-dotnet mailing list is a fantastic example of that.

In Canberra - I know there's geeks. I've met some.

So why can't we find any when we have a job opening? We have a contract position open where I work. People apply, I interview them, I feel disappointed.

Now, I know I'm an uber-geek. That's not to say I know it all (or much, even), but if I'm feeling bored or tired or happy or anything, my way of relaxing at home is to open visual studio and play. I like playing with code. I like finding out how stuff works.

When I needed to figure out how a few webby things worked, I wrote myself a web server so that I could get a feel for what a request and a response looked like.

Back in the VB 6 days, if I wanted some common controls that weren't part of the VB tool box, I worked out the right win API methods to call to create all my controls on the fly - doing it the C++ way.

A couple of years ago a friend and I were putting together an ISAPI filter as a proof of concept - proof of concept my ass! We were doing it in our own time, so to me the fun part was now to get it super fast and super small. So I taught myself enough assembler to a couple of functions that way - because the algorithm I wanted was more efficient at the assembler lever. By calling a specific instruction directly I saved myself about a hundred clock cycles per call.

This is fun to me. It's my passion.

I'm not expecting to find as sad a case as I am. I know that there's not really that many people around who are as bad.

But surely we can find people that are close? By close, I mean just in the rough sort of neighbourhood. I'm not after an uber-geek. I just want someone who finds it all interesting. That wants to tinker. That can tinker. Someone who can ask for help in decent places (like newsgroups and the aus-dotnet list), but also learns from the answers.

At the interviews we held today, I asked a couple of questions that I was really hoping they'd know the answer to. Before I asked the questions, I would have put them at medium difficulty - not stuff beginners should know, but definitely stuff most people should know.

What's the difference between a GET and a POST request? Is it too much to ask that they know a little more about the web environment than just dragging controls from the tool box onto a web form? I guess not. No one knew.

One guy had heard of the terms, if not knew the answer. What's a HEAD request? This was just for bonus points. No go.

I moved to the winforms area. I asked one guy if he'd ever noticed that in the code for, say, a button click, the whole form locked up and nothing happened until the code was finished running. He had. He had a progress bar that didn't update - it just went from 0% at the start, to 100% at the end in one jump, and was locked up in between.

Great, I thought. So what caused the problem, and how did you fix it? 'I don't know,' says he. 'I removed just removed the progress bar and there was no problem any more'.

I asked if they'd worked with threads. Sure they say. And problems did you face - dealing with thread safety and stuff like that? None apparently - I eventually worked out that the real answer was no, they'd not done any threading work.

Am I expecting too much? I'm not looking for another me, I just want someone competent enough to keep up with what we do - and to keep up, you should understand your environment.

I think that whatever field you choose to commit to making a career of, you should at least have some interest in it. Chef's should search for better recipes. Builders for better ways to build. A desire to research the why and the how, more than just the bare minimum to get the job done. All the people I spoke to had an MS certification in C#. Everyone (well, most - not me, that's for sure) thinks that C# is better, C# coders are better, and yet I keep on being shown C# guys that just don't know enough to do anything other than really simple programming.

Are there any geeks in Canberra looking for some contract work? I'd love to hear from you. Contact me using the contact link on my blog. Remember: we're a VB.net house. If you're not willing to do it in VB, we're not willing to use you. It's sad, given that the whole point of .net is that languages end up being unimportant, but there's more politics here than you know, so no attacking me please :)

Posted: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:28 AM by Geoff Appleby
Filed under: ,

Comments

BTX said:

>>If you're not willing to do it in VB, we're not willing to use you.

you lost 90%+ the audience right at the end there =oP

too bad you can't find good people, but really there aren't that many good programmers, and the good ones are usually taken
# August 3, 2005 11:53 AM

ewise said:

Even during the "IT Crash" when there was great screaming and crying that good programmers were out of work every company I was contracting for was desperately seeking quality bodies to put in the seat.

There was always no shortage of applications, but a huge shortage of qualified ones.

I sat through an interview where the candidate called it "C-Pound"
# August 3, 2005 12:08 PM

James Avery said:

I know how you are feeling, it is tough to find good people. It can be even harder depending on your pay scale and the opportunity. I know I am quite picky as to what I want to do, I don't want to be a code monkey and I dont want to work for peanuts. Why not post the job req on your blog? What kind of work is it? What pay scale? (Not that I am available or in your hemisphere)

-James
# August 3, 2005 12:09 PM

Jason Bunting said:

This is the same thing we are seeing at the consultancy I work at - we interview people that are supposed to know ASP.NET and yet can't explain the particulars of what a PostBack really is and how objects are instantiated on the server side and how it relates to ViewState. As someone said, all of the good devs are usually taken. I went to school with so many people that only were in the field because they didn't mind computers, not because they were passionate about it. Honestly, perhaps 5% of students were interested enough in the field to do work on their own time and for their own professional development.
I still can't believe some people in this industry expect to be spoon-fed, but it happens. Oh well, what can you do? The only nice thing about this is that I feel good about my chances of securing a job if I ever lose my current one - I may not know everything, but amazingly I seem to know more than the devs we see in our interviews.
# August 3, 2005 1:15 PM

DonD said:

"I'm not looking for another me"

Yes you are, and your interviewing will go much better once you just admit it. That's not necessarily a bad thing at all, but it's hard if you don't understand that not every uber-geek is the same kind of uber-geek you are.

If you are getting people who don't know the basics of what you think you require, then your job description should be improved (and screening, for that matter). If you want folks who know the difference between GET and POST, say something to that effect. You'll always get a certain amount of desperate folks applying, but the clearer the description of what you really want, the better your chances of good and bad fits filtering themselves appropriately. Don't just say "must understand general web blah blah".

It's quite possible to make a living doing apps/web apps without understanding very much of the underlying tech (I know next to nothing about assembly, for example, or about how a rdbms allocates disk space, or how a tcp/ip stack might be improved). Curiosity about how stuff works is a trait I like too, but it's not required for lots of things (especially for doing quick contract work on some forms app). Make it explicit what you really want/need, and right-size your expectations to that.

And yeah, most people who are really curious about the way things work don't stay with VB very long, so you're going to have to interview more people based on that alone. Ask for VB and, say Ruby or Python, if you really want to separate out the tinkerers from the RAD-ers.
# August 3, 2005 1:40 PM

Rory Primrose said:

Miss me yet? :)
# August 3, 2005 4:50 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

BTX:
>you lost 90%+ the audience right at the end there

Yeah, I know. It's sad that so many people prefer an inferior language *grin* (ok, stop, I really don't want to start a flame war again. Pretend I never said that :)

# August 3, 2005 6:24 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

Eric:
>I sat through an interview where the candidate called it "C-Pound"

Heheh. I've seen that. But in australia, we call it 'hash', not 'pound'. C-Hash is quite popular here *grin*
# August 3, 2005 6:25 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

James:
>Why not post the job req on your blog? What kind of work is it? What pay scale?

I know I should. I'm in a sort of a bind in this one :( I work for a very large company (read: _extremely_ large) and I try to do my best to get keep work related stuff seperate from my blog. I've been unable to find a real blogging policy from the powers above me, and the best I can do is be smart about it and mention details of my employment as little as possible.

That way my arse is covered.

Generally speaking, we're after a good .net coder. We have two large asp.net/web service driven applications, and two large classic asp applications. The .net ones need more things done to them, and maintenance will be needed on all 4 apps.

I really can't give more info except in direct communication - I value my hide too much to risk saying that my employers would deem inappropriate :)
# August 3, 2005 6:30 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

DonD:
>If you are getting people who don't know the basics of what you think you require, then your job description should be improved.

Well, I think you're right there. Unfortunately, I get little control over the job description :( Hell, I haven't even seen it. Someone much higher up than me sends out a job description, and I know I've never been contacted about the requirements for the role (or others previous either).

Red tape in a big corporation.

Damn annoying.
# August 3, 2005 6:33 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

Rory:
Never!!!

*cries*

:)
# August 3, 2005 6:33 PM

Eddie de Bear said:

Geoff,

I feel for you, I really do...

A quick question... Are you advertising through recruitment agencies?? I'm sure this is the root cause of most applicants not being suitable for jobs... Let me explain..

Agents are people persons... They have absolutely NO understanding of development skills, techniques, technologies.. All they have is a list of poeple with a list of skills... They play "Matching" games.. (Remember Memory, Fish etc... They are good at these games..). If they find someone who matches the criteria, they submit them for a position... Their is no "Geek" ranking, despite the fact that there clearly should be...

Maybe you just need to find a better way of attracting geeks... Try recruiting through blogs, try recruiting through word of mouth, maybe even *gasp* at usergroup meetings and MSDN updates...

Sure, I understand that this may be a little hard, especially when dealing with HR department, but using the same old, you get the "same old" people...

# August 3, 2005 7:00 PM

Kris Gray said:

I'm a dev that recently just had to find a new position, and there are some things that strike me as curious.

You want good developers, yet you offer a contract position, doesn't sound very appealing.

I had a choice between a small company and dozens of MS positions. MS being as big as it was, sounded quite boring, the only reason I would have taken the position was more pay, which MS is most likely not going to give me over the smaller more flexible companies.

Lastly, looking for positions pretty much sucks. Basicly its job posting boards (dice) or recruiters.

Preferably, I'd like an old buddy to inform me of a position with his company so I knew the company was good and I already felt comfortable with the people.

# August 3, 2005 7:17 PM

Darrell said:

I had a similar story:

I ask a candidate for a Client if he knew design patterns, he was like "yeah, sure I use them all the time!". So I asked him to pick ANY ONE, and explain it. [crickets chirp] then the backpedal, "well I don't really know how to explain which one and um er..." I mercifully cut him off after that, and conveniently had no more questions.
# August 3, 2005 11:46 PM

Spaz said:

You do realize that C# programmers are more likely to have tinkered under the hood and know the difference between GET, POST and HEAD requests right? (Maybe that's because the language makes them do it to get anything to work reliably, heh!)

When hiring people I've never been really impressed by wet-behind-the-ears uni students and almost always hire people with a few years under their belt. Guess I'm still remembering when I went back to get my IT degree and spent far too much time in labs showing other students where the power switches were on computers. Doesn't seem to have changed much. :(

Does your ISAPI filter still work under IIS6? One aggregation filter I wrote ran perfectly fine with thread-locking under IIS4 (and 5, without changes surprisingly), but the process model was thrown out the window with IIS6 and I had to rewrite it from scratch to work with shared memory blocks via memory mapped files and mutexes.
# August 4, 2005 2:48 AM

Mischa Kroon said:

I was also on the job market for a little bit... and I'm now currently enjoying my time in between jobs.

I found it quite refreshing how many positive sounds I heard on interviews and was lucky to be able to pick where I wanted to work.

I think the best thing to do is recruit actively under other company's.

Good people aren't on the job market for very long.

Looking at my personal experience it took me about 3 weeks from unemployment to finding a job. ( thats including multi staged interview processes )

# August 4, 2005 3:04 AM

Geoff Appleby said:

Darrell: This happened to me the other day too! Well...I knew it would happen, and I'd already worked out the level of this guys knowledge, so when he said he very much preferred working with patterns, I didn't bother to ask him which ones. Him not naming any was enough for me :)
# August 4, 2005 8:34 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

Eddie: The more I think about it, the more I think you (and others that mentioned the same sort of thing) are right. Our team was not involved in the job description, or anything like that. I haven't even seen it - it was just written by someone and sent out to recruiting agencies.

The shame is that there's probably not much I can do about it. I'll be talking to the bosses when I get back from leave, but I'm not sure there's even anything _they_ can do.
# August 4, 2005 8:53 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

Kris:
>You want good developers, yet you offer a contract position, doesn't sound very appealing.

I agree. Again, it's the big corporation thing. A certain percentage of jobs _must_ be to contractors - then if any belt tightening orders come down from above, it's just a matter of not renewing some contracts.

Generally speaking however, so long as the contractor is good at his job, it's almost always renewed and can last for years. Most of our permanent spots that open go to decent, long serving contractors.
# August 4, 2005 8:58 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

Spaz:
>You do realize that C# programmers are more likely to have tinkered under the hood and know the difference between GET, POST and HEAD requests right?

And this is the main problem in the .net world.
Everyone really believes that statement you made there.

I'm sorry, but it's just plain not true. Making the switch from Mort to Elvis (see Mitch Denny's blog for a good description: http://notgartner.com/posts/1935.aspx) is language agnostic.

I certainly don't mean to offend, but it's the stigma that 'C# programmers are real programmers (re: Elvis)' and 'VB programmers can't (re: Mort)' that leads to so much bullshit out in the IT world. I've met a very large number of Morts (or less than Morts) who have only ever been in the C# world. I'm not saying that I haven't met any VB guys that don't have a clue, just that I've met _as_ many C# guys who don't.

# August 4, 2005 9:08 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

Spaz:
>Does your ISAPI filter still work under IIS6?

Yeah, it did, but not quite as well :) I've long since lost the source code for it (it's around here somewherE) but it was a proof of concept that we never never needed to build into a final product in the end.

I think I was lucky in that it really wasn't doing very much anyway :)
# August 4, 2005 9:10 PM

BTX said:

>>I sat through an interview where the candidate called it "C-Pound"

lol, funny...

"BTX:
>you lost 90%+ the audience right at the end there

Yeah, I know. It's sad that so many people prefer an inferior
language *grin* (ok, stop, I really don't want to start a flame war again.
Pretend I never said that :)"

at least you are aware that VB is a LOT less popular than C#...


"I certainly don't mean to offend, but it's the stigma that
'C# programmers are real programmers (re: Elvis)' and
'VB programmers can't (re: Mort)' that leads to so much bullshit out
in the IT world."
yes, .NET is language agnostic, but yes, most of the "real programmers" (coming from Delphi, C++, etc) migrated to C# instead of VB
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# January 3, 2007 3:30 AM
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