Public Class GeoffAppleby : But What IS Agile?

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Sam Gentile said:

Thanks, I have clarified my post to say VSS 2005. I think the problems of VSS have been well known for years to many people (and Microsoft) that I don't have to iterate them all. Most companies that I have worked at that used VSS have had corruption in the file stores. I changed my post to list some of the many daily probems we are having with VSS 2005. Yes its 2005.

# March 2, 2006 11:55 PM

Sam Gentile said:

Umm, do a search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=VSS+%2Bcorrupt

# March 3, 2006 12:04 AM

Geoff Appleby said:

Hey Sam,

I've known about issues with VSS6 (and been hit with them myself), but the fact that it's 2005 is really interesting. was it only corruptions and crashes? It's strange, with all the talk that's gone on about whidbey and yukon and vsts, it's strange that i've actually seen NO reviews of the new vss - haven't heard a peep since it was announced and they claimed how good it was going to be.

Damn!

# March 3, 2006 12:40 AM

Aaron Cooper said:

If you really want to learn about Agile Programming in general, and Extreme Programming in particular, you could do a lot worse than reading the Extreme Programming bible Extreme Programming Explained. I generally take all the Agile stuff out there as take it or leave it. It all sounds like a good idea on paper and in princible, but there are a whole lot of situations where it just *isn't* a suitable answer. But by the same token, it never hurts to question if there's a better way of doing things.

# March 3, 2006 12:49 AM

Aaron Cooper said:

Sorry about the link in that post. That's what I get for trying to be too fancy. You might want to clean it up if you're able to :)

# March 3, 2006 12:52 AM

Geoff Appleby said:

*laughs* no worries aaron. I can't actually edit someone elses comment, only delete it. But I can just post the link again.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321278658/102-0440880-2109728?v=glance&n=283155

If i get a chance i'll take a look at the book, thanks for the tip.

My point, however, is not that _I_ want it explained _me_. What i want is for people, when writing posts like this (not so much sam's vss one :), not to assume so much prior knowledge on the part of our readers as we so often do. And i'm as much at fault here as others.

# March 3, 2006 3:47 AM

John Woodard said:

I hear you loud and clear. The problem is that these people are engineers, like myself, and those people generally have very peculiar form of communication disorder: Rather than assuming you know nothing, they actually assume that you know everything they know, and thus by talking to them you are telling them how you take that data and turn it into information.

I love CodeBetter.com, but I have to admit in my efforts to convert myself to Agile, I have had some of the same frustrations that you have had with posts here. I'm sold; chances are since I'm here I'm already sold. Now I actually want to DO it, not just want to do it. Help me.

Is there some type of Ask the Experts forum on CodeBetter.com where we can post questions we would like to see blog posts about? That would probably help a lot.

# March 3, 2006 6:38 AM

Exasperated said:

Why don't you just read a damned book about it instead of whining on your blog?

There's no shortage of books about Agile development. To start, try Crystal Clear, Extreme Programming Explained or one of the books about Scrum. Then you could buy one of the many books about Test Driven Development, since you say you have difficulty understanding how to do that.

And after reading, why not go to a conference, workshop or tutorial to try it out? Or go along to a special interest group and share experience with other interested people?

# March 3, 2006 7:52 AM

Jason Haley said:

# March 3, 2006 8:18 AM

Jay Kimble said:

Amen.. Brother IBrainFart!

I would like to see a nice side by side on two methods...

UNfortunately I really believe that the only real way you can learn Agile is to be indoctrinated... uhhmm... I mean discipled... uhhh... I mean mentored...

BTW, I started reading ClearCase and when couldn't get too far. It reads more like a case study and less like a "how to do it" manual. Actually the picture of the "ClearCase" team was the final thing I read... it scared the crap out of me... I'm not sure I want to work in that environment (I don't think I would be very productive).

# March 3, 2006 8:31 AM

Jeff Lynch said:

Geoff,

First off, great post (except your name keeps getting misspelled for some reason - LOL).

As a (relatively) old timer, I've seen many new programming languages and development techniques come and go over the years. Working as a consultant I used the "waterfall" approach to project management most often but used a more "iterative team based" approach to development (one dev, one tester) more often than not. As an end-user developer today, I'll try any development technique that allows me to produce solid code and be more productive but I don't follow any one technique "religiously", it depends upon the project. As languages go these days (in .NET at least) it really doesn't matter much to me since they all run under the CLR but I personally like C# the best. I do use VB.NET and (only when forced) C++ occasionally.

As for "buying more books" as suggested in another comment, developers have almost singlehandedly supported the entire publishing industry and I just don't have any more shelf space for development books. I currently spend several thousand dollars every year on these books which become outdated within 12 months due to how fast our industry changes, and my wife's gonna kill me if I order another C# book on Amazon!

I think we could all be a little less "preachy" in our posts (myself especially) and a little more "explanitory". Thanks for pointing this out!

---
Jeff

# March 3, 2006 9:00 AM

Tim Weaver said:

As I was running on the treadmill last night (it was cold here and supposed to snow, but I don’t think...

# March 3, 2006 9:25 AM

Sam Gentile said:

With all due respect, a bunch of us are here at work and looking at this post and saying "what on earth does this post have to do with VSS and SVN?" As Andrew Stapford said, its a "very curious response." You went off on some rant about Agile and my post doesn't have anything to do about Agile. VSS corrupts absolutely whether its used in Agile or Waterfall or whatever and is not reliable.

# March 3, 2006 9:32 AM

Tim Weaver said:

As I was running on the treadmill last night (it was cold here and supposed to snow, but I don’t think...

# March 3, 2006 12:08 PM

Even more exasperated said:

You want a book that gives you a side-by-side comparison of different agile methods? Then get Agile Development Ecosystems by Jim Highsmith or the Agile Software Development by Alastair Cockburn. Really, is it that hard to do an Amazon search?

And you don't need to be mentored. Meet up with some people who are also trying it out, share your war stories and swap tips. Expect a learning curve, so get a good run-up. Stop waiting to be spoon fed!

# March 3, 2006 12:54 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

Exasperated and Even more exasperated:
Sorry guys (or girls, I can't tell with those names :) but you've read me all wrong. I've used some posts on agile (and one on vss - i'll be getting back to you Sam next comment) as a way of trying to make a point unrelated to agile.

I haven't written this post because I want someone to teach me about agile.

I KNOW what it is. I KNOW what books are worth reading to find out a whole lot more.

All I'm saying is that a lot of us bloggers (myself included) tend to preach the whole 'you should do X' line, but rarely do we follow up with 'and this is how you do X'.

I used an agile post as an example because it's one of the most common ones around these days.

--Geoff

# March 3, 2006 4:58 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

Sam: I'm not ranting about agile, and i'm not comparing using VSS to agile at all.

I was attempting (and my guess is that i got about 50% there, based on the the comments) to make the point that we rarely back things we say that can often be quite heavily based on opinion with good explanations.

I mentioned your post to and show that it's _not_ only agile posts that so often fall in this category. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough, I'm afraid. The point to linking to yours is that, like with Tim's (and so many other posts out there) I was left with some questions. The questions to your post were not as earth shattering as I had to Tim's, but it did seem mentioning at the time. You've done a couple of posts lately about how you recommend subversion, but you're still stuck on VSS, and now you've finally upgraded - but I never really understood the problem. Well, ok, _I_ did, but less experienced might not have. All I've read of your stuff says that it crashed a few of times (all on the same day) but you never mentioned any corruptions to the repository or anything, just an oblique reference to 'multiple problems each day' but you didn't say what they were.

As a result I was left with the feeling of 'oh, yet another OSS zealot who won't give VSS a try'.

That's not to say that's what you are - hell, you work in the MS world, so obviously you aren't :) But take jsut those posts by themselves and all I see if bias against something that many people say is crap without really telling me what's so crap about it and why i should care.

Again, yes, _I_ know why i should care, but how many people will stumble accross your small comments on wanting to get rid of VSS and take you to be just some opinionated prick?

And that's why I wrote my post. There's a lot that a lot of us write that will make us out to be opinionated pricks :)

And once I thought about that, I realised that perhaps it's something we need to think about.

Sure, I really am an opinionated prick, but about completely different stuff, not the stuff I blog about - I want to be labelled for the right reasons!

# March 3, 2006 5:11 PM

Eber Irigoyen said:

and let the blog wars begin... anyway

I do find a lot of people with the first problem you describe though, at our company we do (once a month) a "lunch and learn", a few weeks ago a guy talked about how he rewrote the a system that another fellow worker had done before, I was very interested in hearing what he had done to improve certain aspects that I knew about the old system, instead of explaining anything, he just went the whole "class" talking about how bad the old code was, what bad practices the other programmer used, etc... and I was left with all the questions unanswered... I think people need to read and understand the Ten Commandments of Egoless programming more

# March 3, 2006 6:18 PM

Sam Gentile said:

>Sam: I'm not ranting about agile, and i'm not comparing using >VSS to agile at all.
But the post is entitled "But What IS Agile?"

>I was attempting (and my guess is that i got about 50% there, >based on the the comments) to make the point that we rarely >back things we say that can often be quite heavily based on >opinion with good explanations.
The Google link to years of corruption wasn't good enough for you? it was for everyone else.

>the time. You've done a couple of posts lately about how you >recommend subversion, but you're still stuck on VSS, and now >you've finally upgraded - but I never really understood the >problem. Well, ok, _I_ did, but less experienced might not have. >All I've read of your stuff says that it crashed a few of times (all >on the same day) but you never mentioned any corruptions to >the repository or anything, just an oblique reference to 'multiple >problems each day' but you didn't say what they were.
I have been doing this for 22 years and I have been using VSS for over ten and its always corrupted. Most people know that. Sometimes, I don't write like other people here with 101 Tutorials. It's not my thing. I write real-world in the field experiences from a 22 year perspective of applying Agile principles to solve a large business problem. Questions can be addressed in comments.

>As a result I was left with the feeling of 'oh, yet another OSS >zealot who won't give VSS a try'.
Oh God, if you know how far you were off the reservation with that one, it would amaze you-) I'm famous with everyone who knows me that I hate all things OSS and will only use them kicking and screaming. I am 100% of the time accused of being a Microsoft Zealot...

>But take jsut those posts by themselves and all I see if bias >against something that many people say is crap without really >telling me what's so crap about it and why i should care.
What more do you need? I'm afraid that many people in my workplace looked at your post and said "that's odd" followed by "huh" then followed by "that should be retracted."

>Again, yes, _I_ know why i should care, but how many people will >stumble accross your small comments on wanting to get rid of >VSS and take you to be just some opinionated prick?
I'd rather you didn't use that word.

>And that's why I wrote my post. There's a lot that a lot of us write >that will make us out to be opinionated pricks :)
>And once I thought about that, I realised that perhaps it's >something we need to think about.
I'll agree here and I am thinking about it like explaining myself thorughly in a post about CAB but I don't see it here. Why are you so wedded to VSS? I said we had problems, listed them and we fixed them. I still don't see it in my post especially with the new links to Google searches. I'm sorry but I don't see it here. You are talking about perhaps my Agile posts and I can do more of the why there but I don't see it here. I'm still at a loss.

Eber,
We do lunch and Learns every week on our team and my blog (and my old blog) are filled with humble posts on how I have been trying to be an egoless programmer and be just another Team Member. I don't think this was directed at me but it's something I work on *every* day as a person.

# March 4, 2006 9:39 AM

Geoff Appleby said:

Sam:
>But the post is entitled "But What IS Agile?"
So? Talking about Agile posts was the bulk of my post. Since it was the primary content, the title can be related to that. I first started byu talking about language wars. I made sure that I mentioned how what i was talking about was happening in many places, not just agile posts - and hence the reason for talking about yours, source control, oss stuff, and all of that. It's just a sad fact that most of the time lately it's agile posts that are the worst offenders. And so my title is targetted to that.

>The Google link to years of corruption wasn't good
>enough for you? it was for everyone else.
Yes, it sure is. _now_ that you've edited the post to mention the version you're using and providing the google link so that people who don't know what's going on can easily do some quick research, i'm completely happy. If your post as it stands now is how you originally published it, i would never have linked to it in the first place.

>I have been doing this for 22 years and I have been
>using VSS for over ten and its always corrupted. Most
>people know that. Sometimes, I don't write like other
>people here with 101 Tutorials. It's not my thing. I write
>real-world in the field experiences from a 22 year perspective
>of applying Agile principles to solve a large business
>problem. Questions can be addressed in comments.
*sigh* I'm not asking for a 101 Tutorial. As I said just above, you've _now_ made the post a tiny bit clearer, and everything is fine. I _want_ non-tutorial posts made, all I want is that bloggers, especially widely-read ones, take a moment to ensure that those who stumble accross any given post have enough information at their fingertips to be fully understand (with extra reading, if necessary) what's being talked about. Sure, questions can be addressed in comments, but why should any post receive a comment like 'what the hell are you talking about?'. You've essentially done only two edits - clarified the exact product that had a problem, and linked to somewhere to find out more about common problems, and now there's no excuse to be asked a question like that.

>Oh God, if you know how far you were off the reservation
>with that one, it would amaze you-) I'm famous with
>everyone who knows me that I hate all things OSS and
>will only use them kicking and screaming. I am 100% of
>the time accused of being a Microsoft Zealot...
No, i'm not off the mark with that one. As i SAID in the previous comment, I know you aren't. Hell, I can recognise people like me (the way you described yourself can easily describe me as well :)
But as you said 'everyone that knows you': more than just people who know you will read it.

>I'd rather you didn't use that word.
Why? I didn't call you that, i called myself that :)

>Why are you so wedded to VSS? I said we had problems,
>listed them and we fixed them. I still don't see it in my
>post especially with the new links to Google searches. I'm
>sorry but I don't see it here. You are talking about perhaps
>my Agile posts and I can do more of the why there
>but I don't see it here. I'm still at a loss.

I'm NOT wedded to VSS. How many times do I need to say it? I KNOW what the issues are with VSS. I had the same problems you've had (i haven't used the latest version yet, but with 6 I have). I don't use anymore, I doubt I ever will use it again.

I _did_ have two questions of my own (what version, and what exactly were all the problems _you_ were having - as opposed to what problems everyone else has) and i would normally have gone to the comments to ask them. But combined with being so unclear to newbies what visual unsafe was and all, i felt it it was a good candidate to use as an example for the post i was writing - to try and avoid this exact problem that people will think i'm ONLY talking about agile. It was for that reason i mentioned the conversation about source control at the end too.

However, I've obviously chosen to link to a bad post. Some people have read my post and understood what point i was trying to make - as shown by the ones from John, Jay, Jeff, Tim's response, Eber....Some obviously haven't got it, as also shown in the comments. You obviously fall into the latter camp, and have taken a real issue with it. If you want, I'll edit my post to make no mention of yours and talk about someone elses who can take what intended to be constructive criticism better (and it really was only meant to be constructive, I was really not wanting to cause any offence whatsoever) better. Just say the word, and I'm fine with that :) In fact, tell me all the edits you want done. Do you want me to change the title? You didn't seem to get that either. I do obviously need to edit to clear some things up (bold caps at the start with a disclaimer that i'm not talking about agile in any specific way might help).

I AM sorry if i've offended you. It wasn't my intent. I've obviously done a bad job of trying to make the point i was trying to make. I still feel that your original unedited post fits with making my point, but if you don't and it's such a problem, then i'll take it out.

# March 4, 2006 11:29 PM

John Wood said:

When I saw Sam's post I was also about to comment that the claim wasn't substantiated and smelt a little like FUD. I didn't though, but mostly because I couldn't be bothered.

I agree with Geoff here of course... I think when you have a blog following you bear a responsibility to explain or at least clarify claims such as "VSS corrupted - that's it i'm moving to subversion". Firstly, you're blaming VSS when it's quite possible the corruption was caused by something else (rebooting while it was being written to? bad driver somewhere? fiddling with the data files?). It certainly doesn't tell the whole story or give it the benefit of the doubt. And that google link is rather lame also if you ask my opinion... given that 90% of the results returned were people just like you who were complaining about possible corruption without any real investigation. I'd almost go as far as saying it's a little egotistic to think that such a baseless claim would carry any merit and be worthy of posting on codebetter. Ok rant over.

# March 5, 2006 12:35 PM

Sam Gentile said:

And I was just coming to the keyboard to say it was all ok and then...
Oh but what to expect from John Wood, a man that has ranted about nearly every post on my blog? I'm not going to argue with you John on this. There is good reason why Microsoft itself does not use it, stopped development (other than bugs) on it, and has replaced it with TFS. You have a personal crusade aggainst me and you have gone too far with "be worthy of posting on codebetter." People like Jim Shore and Andrew Stopford saw it the opposite: that this post made Codebetter look worse. They, like me, have dealt with many years of VSS corruption occuring at totally random spots. The only thing I did was try to put a SQL text script in. A SOURCE CODE CONTROL SYSTEM SHOULD NEVER CORRUPT!!!!! EVER!! Ever hear of Change Transactions? TFS, Vault and Subversion have them, VSS does not, the change gets lost. This is totally unacceptable even if the things you list happened which they did not, as well as the fact that it has happened to just about everyone I know. Do you even get the seriousness of how they can even have a product out there that has blown people's source trees away for years?? And many people on the comments applauded the decision because they think outside the Microsoft box as to what actually works. But then again, you have hated just about all my posts because you have an irrational hatred of all things agile and what I do. I won't waste my time. Bozo bit flipped.

I just want to be able to post my experiences and write on the things I like, If it doesn't work for you John or Geoff, well just don't read! Its that simple. Its too much work to deal with you.

Geoff, you and I are cool. Your further comments made me realize that I did need to put in more detail into my posts and that yours was fine. I was coming here to say that but ran into John's comment and got sidetracked. You made agood point and we're good.

# March 5, 2006 1:30 PM

John Wood said:

I did say "*almost* go as far as...", Sam. I certainly do not have a personal crusade against you!! That's just crazy. I spot stuff, I read, I comment... it has nothing to do with you personally. I criticize posts I feel could be improved in the hope they will be, for the better of all. I happen to think a lot of your posts are great. Maybe I should leave some positive comments on those, that's my bad.

Now... if your post contained all the detail you wrote above about why you think VSS sucks, then I think your original post would have been far more useful and I wouldn't have thought about criticizing it. But you know, if you would prefer for me not to read your blog then just say the word and I won't bother you again! :)

# March 5, 2006 1:51 PM

Sam Gentile said:

Ok, it's time to sing Cumbuya and have a big group hug-)).

Its my fault as I am oversensitive right now because my work and family are in two different states and I am trying to move. I should not have let my emotions get the best of me. Thanks John for clarifying, I guess I need positive hugs every once in a while too-).

Thanks to both of you for keeping me honest and helping me improve. Sorry for being so sensitive.

All the best

# March 5, 2006 1:56 PM

Geoff Appleby said:

*sniff* I hate fighting with you guys!!! *grin*

Glad it's all sorted out. :)

# March 6, 2006 6:46 AM

I love the irony! said:

"All I'm saying is that a lot of us bloggers (myself included) tend to preach the whole 'you should do X' line, but rarely do we follow up with 'and this is how you do X'."

So why don't you start with this very topic, eh? Rewrite this post in they style you'd like to see others use.

# March 6, 2006 9:54 AM

Geoff Appleby said:

I agree Mr Irony.

With all writing, writers need editors. Someone to review and fix and make suggestions. Blogging rarely involves any sort of editing, except for self-editing, which is rarely as good.

When I published this post, I honestly thought I'd made my point clear. I definately can't afford an editor though :) I've been thinking about what I need to do to improve this post, and i'll be making some edits when I get a chance.

Thanks for the input :)

# March 6, 2006 6:43 PM

ScottBellware said:

Agile development is very hard to communicate in a blog post - much in the same way that meditation is difficult to communicate in a blog post, or even a long series of blog posts. It's one of those things in life whose significance will remain relatively unrealized until you have made the effort to gain personal knowledge of and experience with it. Agile is a set of practices that span high-level approaches to process, to low-level and tactical approaches to nitty-gritty programming patterns and practices.

Agile isn't a thing that you can get a grip on merely by running an installer - it's human capability wrought through practice. if you're not willing to practice, then you simply won't get Agile. You can install tools that have risen form the Agile community all day long without really understanding the ultimate intention of their best uses. Agile can't be given to you the way a tool can - it's not material and since it's not material, it's hard to project to a culture of software developers who have over the past few years become almost entirely dependent on the visual cortex to the detriment of other learning faculties.

We're used to being spoon-fed tools as solutions to software development problems that aren't solvable merely by tools. This is largely Microsoft's doing, but other tool vendors are playing along. At present, Agile isn't in Microsoft's best interest - it would be far too expensive to try to communicate it appropriately, and it might take a big chunk out of their tool revenues. To wit, Microsoft's recent offerings in the Agile space are sadly watered-down interpretations of Agile as light-weight approaches to using VSTS. And ultimately, this vision of Agile will be what most Microsoft customers will come into contact with, which should ultimately prove effective in keeping Microsoft customers focused on the mythological tool-based productivity gains as apposed to design practice-based productivity gains.

If you want to learn Agile, then do it. If you want to be given Agile, the way Microsoft has given you Master Pages, then you'll never really have the inside track on why Agilists are singing the praises of their new levels of accomplishments. You'll hear the words, and you'll map those words to your non-Agile experiences and meaning, and you'll assume that you know what Agilists are talking about, but you may be horribly mislead.

If you ask for me to prove meditation, I'd have nothing to say other than, "prove it to yourself." Not because I'm an elitist, but because it's the nature of practition.

# March 8, 2006 12:47 AM

LeVaN said:

# November 28, 2006 12:31 AM

Public Class GeoffAppleby

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But What IS Agile?

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Sam Gentile said:

Sam Gentile said:

Geoff Appleby said:

Aaron Cooper said:

Aaron Cooper said:

Geoff Appleby said:

John Woodard said:

Exasperated said:

Jason Haley said:

Jay Kimble said:

Jeff Lynch said:

Tim Weaver said:

Sam Gentile said:

Tim Weaver said:

Even more exasperated said:

Geoff Appleby said:

Geoff Appleby said:

Eber Irigoyen said:

Sam Gentile said:

Geoff Appleby said:

John Wood said:

Sam Gentile said:

John Wood said:

Sam Gentile said:

Geoff Appleby said:

I love the irony! said:

Geoff Appleby said:

ScottBellware said:

LeVaN said: